The style of Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling is resurging from almost absolute obscurity into a very popular and much sought after style of grappling. Martial Artists from all over are clamoring to learn more about it's unique and unorthodox style of applying submissions. This resurgence is primarily due to Tony Cecchine [pronounced Che-Chee-Nee], who released a videotape of one of his seminars that spread through the Internet and martial arts circles like wildfire. Many martial artists had never seen the techniques of Catch wrestling or the way that they are applied. Much less have even heard of Catch wrestling. Tony Cecchine has done a lot to bring Catch wrestling, an American style of submission wrestling, to the forefront by establishing a web site [www.catchwrestle.com], doing seminars, being a consultant on The Underground [a martial arts discussion forum on the Internet] and most recently, releasing a set of instructional video tapes. I caught up with Tony on March 16, 2000 to ask him what Catch wrestling is, what are the philosophies behind it, how it differs from other styles of grappling, about his new instructional tape series, his thoughts on NHB fighters, and his feud with Matt Furey.

FCF: First off, let's start off with your background, so we can get to know the man behind the resurgence of Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling.
Tony Cecchine: Well, I started doing this when I was 13, which is almost 23 years ago. My coach at the time was a 70 year old guy, who used to wrestle professionally both in Europe and here in the United States. Through the years, I have gotten to know a lot of old-time professional wrestlers and it seems to me that I'm really the last guy doing this and they are all behind me. Everybody wants me to keep continuing to teach this and keep this art going.

FCF: Do you mind mentioning your instructor?
TC: Stanley Radwan.

FCF: Please explain what exactly is Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling?
TC: Basically Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling is a pre-cursor to freestyle wrestling, with a lot of holds that are banned in freestyle wrestling. For example, you can use arm bars that would break an arm or do some damage to a tendon, leg locks, spine locks, and hip locks. Basically, you can use concession holds. As far as throws, all throws that are legal in Greco-Roman are legal in Catch-As-Catch-Can. In the old days, you won a match by pin fall or by submission. Not every guy that used to know how to do Catch-As-Catch-Can was fluent with hooks. [A hook is another name for a submission technique] That's a whole different thing. Now hooking is a little bit different than Catch-As-Catch-Can. A hooker is the top of the heap. It would be like a baseball player who can hit .350 in a season, as opposed to a guy who can just bat .200.

FCF: Catch wrestling has interesting philosophies or strategies to training and applying its techniques. Can you let us in on it?
TC: I think the most important thing is that it's aggressive in its mindset. Even if you're a defensive style wrestler, you're still thinking, "I have to submit this guy." You want to get it over with as soon as possible. Jiu-Jitsu tends to say, "well, let's wear the guy out." No rounds, no time limits, whatever. With Catch, the thing is let's use my whole body as a weapon, let's use his whole body as a target. Somehow or another we should be able to get this match over. In the carny [carnival] days, the way the carnival circuits was run, your opponent would get paid money for every minute that he would last with you. So the object was learning how to take your opponent out as quick as possible. I think that's the main difference between this and Jiu-Jitsu. Jiu-Jitsu is more or less, "lets wait, lets take our time." With Catch wrestling, it's more like, "lets get this over with." We believe in control. There's a big misnomer going on, especially on the Internet that we'll just haphazardly search for a hook. And that's not true. What we do is we look to establish A position. It doesn't matter which one it is, as long as it's a dominant position and we have to find a submission from there. Establishing a position won't win you a fight. It's plain and simple. There's been plenty of examples of that. When Joe Moreira [BJJ stylist] was in the UFC, he fought that Russian boxer. He had good position, but he didn't know how to finish the guy. He had no clue of what he was doing. The same with Royce. A lot of times he was on his back, when he was fighting Shamrock and he didn't know how to finish. The thing here is that we always want to look, at any position you are in; there are opportunities to finish the match. We are constantly looking for control and for the submission.

FCF: Why was Catch wrestling so prevalent decades ago, but suddenly forgotten?
TC: What had happen, to the best of my knowledge, was when American wrestling was real, slowly but surely it got into the fake style of pro-wrestling of today. People didn't want long matches. Other guys that wrestled wanted to make sure they could make a good living. It would be like a pro-boxer having a championship match every week, it just doesn't happen. You can only bring yourself to a certain level every so often. So, in the meanwhile, these guys had to make a living, and the only way they could do that was by wrestling often. And if you're going to wrestle every week, or a couple times a week, there's no way you would be able to do this if all the matches were on the up and up. So it slowly but surely became an exhibition of what we see today. And as the years went by, and more people were getting involved in wrestling, there was no longer any need for the hooking. The only guys who really learned how to wrestle were on the carnival circuit. And probably the last time we had any carnival wrestlers was the late 50s or early 60s. When the carnivals died, the regular professional wrestlers didn't have anywhere to draw from. You take a guy like Karl Gotch for example, Gotch never wrestled in carnivals. He had very, very, few shoot matches, if any. But you have others before him, in America especially, that did nothing but shoot matches. And when the carnivals died off and they went straight to the worked matches, they never had another shoot match in the rest of their career. So that's why I think it died, there's just no outlet for the legitimacy of shoot [real] matches.

FCF: As you just mentioned, some of the older professional wrestlers were Catch wrestlers. Can you mention some of them by name and tell us a little about them?
TC: The ones that are still alive, well, there's a guy by the name of Lou Thesz, Lou was the greatest, as far as all the big name wrestlers. He had legitimate ability and was one of the nicest guys that I have ever met in my life, just sensational. One of his coaches was Ed "The Strangler" Lewis. He was also trained earlier by a guy by the name of Ad Santel and George Tragos. He never did the carnival circuit, he was just a professional guy, but he learned his hooks. He was sensational with them. Another great guy, who wrestled on of the carnival circuit, was Dick Cardinal out Seattle, Washington. Dick was a training partner of a guy by the name Ben Sherman, a 160lber, who just beat everybody in the world. Dick is absolutely a gentleman and a phenomenal hooker. Another guy that I know is Billy Wicks, from the southern United States. Billy is probably, of all the hookers left, is the best there is, sensational. He ended up making his living in law enforcement, but he wrestled from the 50s until the 70s. The guy is absolutely fantastic when it comes to hooks. There's other guys, Vic Short, who wrestled on the carny circuit, Frank Facketty. He's still alive. To a sense, Sputnik Monroe, he's a brawler but he still wrestled in the carnys and shit. He's a really tough guy. Any guy who ever wrestled on the carny circuit, was the real deal. They were real tough guys. And I have more respect for a carnival wrestler than any of the others because they would take on all comers. So they always had to be ready to fight.

FCF: Presently, professional wrestling is wildly popular. Are there any current pro-wrestlers that know Catch wrestling?
TC: Well, technically, if you listen to the announcers, what they are doing is still Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling. They try to cling to the lineage, but as far as knowing submission holds, I'm sure there are some guys who have picked up some things because of the popularity of this no-holds barred stuff, choke holds, arm bars, whatever it may be. But Catch-As-Catch-Can is more than just knowing submission holds, okay? There's a lot to it. It's about learning how to do take downs, how to stop takedowns. It's so difficult to explain this to people who have never really seen it. They think, "oh, it's just like Jiu-Jitsu, but you use leg locks." No it's totally different. So, to answer your question, that if there are any guys that know it. I really can't say. I don't see any examples of it. The closest thing would be Ken Shamrock, although I heard that Little Guido, who wrestles for ECW [Extreme Championship Wrestling] was trained by Billy Robinson. I don't know to what extent though.

FCF: There was recently a documentary on cable featuring the pro-wrestler, Bret "The Hitman" Hart. It showed Bret's dad showing some submission techniques. Have you seen this program and if so, is this the same Catch Wrestling that you teach?
TC: Yeah, I saw the program. Stu Hart, very knowledgeable guy, however, Stu, from all accounts, and I never met the guy or any of the Harts, but from all the old timers that I talked to, Stu was more like an Angelo Dundee type guy. He could show you how to do it, but he couldn't do it himself. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, the moves that he learned, a lot of them were from old hookers like Bob Cummings and Luther Lindsay and shit, so his base is very solid, but…I guess what I am trying to say is that he never had a reason to train for shoots. So his whole forte is teaching professional wrestling, which is a cooperative match. The moves are legitimate, but there's more than learning how to squeeze someone's head. You have to learn how to get into it and how to get out of it and so on.

FCF: There are many different styles of wrestling throughout the world. Are there other styles of wrestling similar to Catch wrestling?
TC: Well, I'm sure that every country has a style that is similar to what we're doing, like Japan has Jiu-Jitsu, Judo, whatever. England, I guess, would be the closest thing. They had a style called Lancashire wrestling, which is like Catch-As-Catch-Can. But to my knowledge, America was one of the pioneers in developing this particular style. Of course, if you want to go back in time to ancient Greece or whatever, I'm sure they probably did everything we're doing here, who knows? It's kind of lost to antiquity. Currently, every style of wrestling seems to be non-submission based. They are trying to lessen the chance of injury. But to the best of my knowledge, certain countries in Europe practiced a style similar to Catch-As-Catch-Can.

FCF: How does the newer styles of grappling, namely combat wrestling or submission grappling, differ from Catch wrestling? Or are they the same thing?
TC: To me combat wrestling, submission wrestling, whatever you want to call it are just names for a particular style. Its just guys who know wrestling and want to put a name on things. This is not diminishing what the style is all about. It can be very effective, but it's just a title. It may be very similar to what I do, but there's no such thing as combat wrestling, it's just a name someone has given it.

FCF: You previously teamed up with Matt Furey, another Catch wrestler, for some seminars, but now you have broken off your partnership. What exactly happened?
TC: Well, frankly, I go into a different direction than Matt Furey. What I look for is purity, and Matt Furey is looking to make a dollar. And the bottom line is I have a problem with this guy coming from the school of teach as you learn, as opposed to taking a few years and mastering the art, and then doing it. At the time that I knew him, I was doing Catch-As-Catch-Can for over twenty years, and he didn't have a clue what it was. Now he wanted right away to become the world's leading authority on it, and it just don't work that way. You have to take your time. You have to learn your craft. You have to pay your dues. He thought that because he had an amateur background, that he should immediately have credibility, but like I told him, look at Mark Coleman, look at Dan Severn, these guys are far, far, far more accomplished as an amateur wrestler than Furey will ever be but they're by no means submission wrestlers. I think the final straw was when the old-timers like Lou Thesz, Dick Cardinal, and Billy Wicks, guys like that, got behind me and supported me. They said, "hey, Tony's the real deal." And Matt didn't want that. He wanted to be known as the authority. So we split up and now he's tied up with Karl Gotch and he's trying to make his name, but unfortunately he's not doing it by any of his accomplishments. He's trying to make his name by bashing me and bashing everybody else. That's just not a good thing.

FCF: Karl Gotch is gaining a lot of notoriety because of Furey. What can you tell us about Karl Gotch?
TC: Well, I have spoken to Karl Gotch on several occasions. Karl is a very good wrestler, no question about it. The guy knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, what's happening now is Furey is trying to make him out like he's the only one who knew this stuff and so on and so forth. And that's so untrue. Karl was very popular as a coach in Japan, when he went over there. I don't know when it was, the late 60s, early 70s, or whatever it was. He started teaching the style he learned while he was in England. The sad part is that there are plenty of wrestlers, both here and abroad that were sensational. Guys like Billy Robinson from England, John Foley from England, Billy Joyce from England, guys that were technically superior to Karl. Of course, John and Billy Joyce are dead, Billy Robinson is still alive. It bothers me that guys like those don't get their full recognition. And of course there are American guys like I mentioned earlier in the interview that wrestled in the carnival circuit that had far, far, far more shoot match experience. In one summer, Dick Cardinal and guys like that had more shoot matches than Karl Gotch ever had in his career. When I talk to these old guys and they hear some of the stuff that is being said coming from the Furey-Gotch camp, they just shake their head and laugh. [They say] this is total bullshit. So, what I'm worried about is that the truth will get distorted and for anyone who is really, truly interested in the true history of Catch-As-Catch-Can is never going to find it.

FCF: You released a video of one of you seminars, which caught on like wildfire. Everyone, at least on the Internet, was talking about it. You recently released a 10-tape set. Can you tell us about those?
TC: I think I released the seminar tape about two and a half years ago and the instructional video series about nine months ago. What happened was some guy that was affiliated with John Saylor's Shingitai JiuJitsu organization wanted to bring me in for a seminar. This is going back to 1997 and he basically brought me in to demonstrate some leg locks because he felt that they needed some work on that element. They videotaped it and one of my students saw the videotape and said, "Tony, you got to do something with this video tape. You got to market it." I said "Nah, I didn't want to do that." I wanted to keep low-key. So, behind my back, he started advertising it on the Internet saying Tony's got this video tape and so on and so forth. Next thing you know, I'm getting orders for the tape, so I was obliged to make copies and so on. Like you said it came on like wildfire. And eventually World Martial Arts contacted me about a year or year and a half later and wanted me to do a 10 tape set. So that's where that's at. Now, my 10 tape series has gotten really good reviews, but it is by no means, everything there is about Catch wrestling. It's just predominantly a submission-based series.

FCF: Do you plan to release more tapes? If so, what do you want to include on those that you did not on the present tapes.
TC: Well, I probably will. What I want to do is takedowns and take down defenses and escapes from positions and escapes from locks. I want to include striking. I have a good striking background and I would like to do a tape predominantly on that. You know, when I did my 10-tape set, I wasn't quite sure what was wanted. Paul Viele sent me a Mario Sperry tape and say "watch this." So I really didn't have a clue in which direction I should do this video. Should I focus it on sport submission or no holds barred and so on. So, my next tapes, if I do another series, would be more vicious, showing pressure points, how to rip somebody up with elbows and gouges. And a conditioning tape. We filmed a conditioning tape, but Paul never released it.

FCF: Where can we go to learn more about Catch wrestling? Do you recommend any other sources other than yourself?
TC: Well, what I would truly recommend is if someone can contact one of the old timers like Lou Thesz, Billy Wicks, Dick Cardinal, or Billy Robinson. These guys are unbiased and have just a sensational wealth of information. You're talking about guys who have 40-50 years of experience in the sport. Unfortunately none of these guys have web sites. I think Lou did for a while, but he moved. I'm not too sure if he still has one. But these guys are really good. I would also say Gene LeBell. Gene LeBell is a very, very knowledgeable guy, who tells it like it is. He has been there, done that, and knows a lot of the people playing the game. I know for a fact that he studied with Karl Gotch and Lou Thesz and the guy knows his shit. That would be what I would say. What I don't want is someone selling you a bill of goods. What you want is someone just stating the facts and letting you come to your own conclusion. What I can't stand is someone who will say "this is the only way, this is the right way, everybody else is wrong." That's bullshit. If you look at boxing for example, look at Mike Tyson and look at Sugar Ray Leonard. Both great boxers, both fought completely different. Both had different styles, both had different approaches to the game. You know Tyson was more the peek-a-boo style from Cus D'Amato and Sugar Ray Leonard was more or less like a Sugar Ray Robinson type. So there is no "one way is the right way" mentality. That just doesn't exist and anybody that tries to tell you this is full of shit.

FCF: You were one of the consultants on The Underground, an Internet discussion forum featured on submissionfighting.com, but you recently stopped doing that. I know you released a comment about that on the web site, but can you tell our readers why?
TC: What had happened plain and simple was this, a lot of it had to do with certain people on the Internet who, instead of making it a discussion forum, decided to turn the place into an attack forum. All they would do is spread lies and hearsay. I was coming under personal attacks and my friends and family were coming under personal attack. I went as far as getting emails with death threats and this kind of shit. I know a lot of it is par for the course and you got to expect this, but what I didn't like was the amount of it. It went way overboard. It was no longer a conducive place to learn. When I first talked to Kirik [Jenness, creator of submissionfighting.com] about it, when he approached me about doing it, I thought it was a great idea because at least we could have a forum for people who aren't satisfied completely with Jiu-Jitsu or whatever there doing. It was an alternative. It was great. It became a question and answer place about techniques or history and so on, but gradually I got more and more flamers that came on there, who just wanted to incite trouble and I just couldn't take it anymore. After a year of dealing with it and it seemed like no one was helping me with these people, no one was banning these people from posting and so on. It became completely ugly. And then you have guys like Matt Furey who will post ridiculous, harmful and negligent posts like submission holds can't break bones. I think guys like Furey should be held legally liable for this shit when you post such absurdity, and somebody goes out and gets injured because of what you post. I had to put my foot down and I had to say that I'm through with this. This is just totally irresponsible and I don't want to be a part of this anymore. He has posted on many occasions just to get at me that submission holds can't break bones. That's like saying a boxer can't get knocked out. It is so preposterous. In fact, at the last Arnold Classic, in Ohio, a guy got his arm broken in a couple of places by having a short arm scissor done to him, which is a move taken right out of Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling. When I talked to the old-timers, they hear about this and they just shake their heads and say that someone is really going to get hurt. What had happened shortly before Christmas, was that I got a phone call from a seventeen-year-old kid, a senior in high school, who believed this, that you can't get your bones broken. He thought that the reason he was tapping from certain holds was because he was a wimp. So he decided to tough it out and he got a bone broken in his ankle. That was a terrible way to spend Christmas, with your leg in a cast. I met a lot of great people, but those Internet forums are a place where people can hide behind a keyboard and just start rumors and type what they want to type.

FCF: What is your opinion of the other styles that consist of or include grappling such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Sambo, or Shootfighting?
TC: I have a lot of respect for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, for Sambo and for Shootfighting. Everybody is looking for the ultimate and the funny thing is, is that there is no ultimate. Street fighting and sport are totally different things. BJJ has proven its effectiveness, you just can't argue with it. If you studied Shootfighting for three years and you're winning tournaments or your defending yourself on the street, that's proof positive right there that the stuff works. You can be studying Tae Kwon Do and if you can make it effective and work for you, then the art deserves kudos. What I can't stand now a days, is people who are bashing all these different arts. The bottom line is you have to find what works for you. Even though I appreciate BJJ and Sambo, I like what I do and I have been in it for 23 years and it's a style that works for me. But for me to sit here and tell you my way is the only way and that stuff doesn't work, would be a lie. Everything has its place and it's up the individual to find its place and what works best for him.

FCF: What are your thoughts about notable NHB fighters including Kerr, both Shamrocks, and the Gracies?
TC: Well let's take this one by one. Mark Kerr is a complete animal. When this stuff became popular...if I'm going to say anything negative about the Gracies' here it comes, they use the adage "size doesn't matter and strength doesn't matter." That's the biggest lie, the biggest crock of shit in the world. Size and strength DO matter. Now, Mark Kerr has size, strength and technique. He has a lot of ability and I think the guy is sensational. Both Ken and Frank Shamrock, to me, have totally different styles for being related and all that. I have a lot of respect for what they do. In fact, all these people, anybody…Fred Ettish, I don't give a shit, all these people put their butts on the line. They got out there and did what they had to do. Now, Kenny [Shamrock] has been away from the game for quite a while. That does take something away from you, bottom line. I had heard rumors that he may be getting back into the game, and if so, I wish him the best of luck. Frank Shamrock, I met the guy, we never talked. I was working out in the same gym as he was. This was with Furey and Brian Johnston at Javier Mendez's place in San Jose [California] and I watch him give a guy a private lesson. I thought that he was an incredible teacher. He was just so down to earth. The kid that was taking the private was in awe and enamored of him, all "oh my god, I'm with Frank Shamrock," and Frank didn't act like that. He acted like one of the guys. I think he's a tremendous athlete, in great shape. He may not have a plethora of techniques. He may not know a thousand different moves, but the moves that he knows, he knows well, and he can execute them. As far as the Gracies, my personal favorite is Renzo Gracie. I think that he is always willing to put his butt on the line and fight guys. This is not to diminish what the other Gracie's have done, they may not be fighting for X amount of reasons or so on and so forth. But the bottom line is that Renzo is always there. Sometimes he will win and look outstanding and other times he will lose in certain tournaments, but he's not afraid of that because the guy is a true warrior. He realizes it's a sport and you're gonna win and you're gonna lose. There's no such thing as unbeatable. But as far as the mixed martial arts movements, if you're going to give anybody kudos for inventing it or for re-popularizing it, you have to talk Royce Gracie. He was the one in the UFCs, who showed everyone what could be done. In a way, he is a pioneer, at least in this country, as far as the martial arts enthusiasts. Although the old carny wrestlers were doing the same thing, of course they weren't doing it on television and shit [laughs]. I have nothing but respect for these guys. Another guy that who I'm impressed with is Sakuraba. To me, right now, Sakuraba is, pound for pound, a fantastic fighter. I give him a lot of credit. He is in a different league. I know another guy, who I worked with, who is fantastic. He may not have shown it in the UFC, but Jason Godsey is a major player. This guy has fought in Pancrase and all over. He's got a lot of balls and he's willing to learn. There's a lot of people out there that I look up to and admire. Those guys are just some of them.

FCF: Do you plan on entering any NHB events?
TC: This sounds like a cop-out and I've taken shit for it on the Internet, but I am in such bad physical condition...I mean I look good, I'm strong and muscular, but one of the major problems that I have is a very bad spinal condition, which I had for several years. And in 1993, I had a brain amorism and which put me in the hospital for three months. I came out of there paralyzed. It took me a good two years to learn how to walk again unaided without crutches or anything. This kind of limits what I can do. However, I seriously want to instruct people to do NHB, but it's up to those people. I want to train some people. The problem with the Internet is that they want me to take someone who has been with me for six months and they want him to fight the world's champion right away. That's like preposterous. I need students and guys who are willing to take a few years and learn this stuff and in time, you're going to see this. I have already had guys who I've worked with who have entered and won NHB competitions. Unfortunately, people just don't want to hear about it. One guy that I worked with is a guy by the name of Michael Kwok. Who, to me, is an absolute phenomenal guy. He's had some success at SuperBrawl and things of that sort. Other people that you never would of heard of, who just entered little local tournaments, so time will reveal all of this.

FCF: I know Mike, he lives down here [in Hawaii].
TC: Yeah, he's working with Egan and I guess he's Baret Yoshida's training partner and shit. Mike's a good kid. He's one of the nicest human beings in the whole world. I wish that guy was my size. If he was, he would be licking the world, but he's like a 150lber. He's a kid that just wants to keep learning. I can't say enough good things about him.

FCF: Do you have your own school or just teach seminars?
TC: I have my own school...well, I don't really want to call it a school, but we have a private club. I have a little family over here and I don't want anybody coming into my family unless I know that we are going to get along. I mean, if you've got some hot head that doesn't want to cooperate, you're not going to learn. So, I want the environment to be very conducive to learning. I have about eight students. They're pretty much hard core. Living in a city like Chicago, it's a very work oriented place. It's very expensive to live out here, some of the guys may have to work overtime and can't come down. But we got a little thing going here and I'm pretty happy with the way things are going.

FCF: You seemed to be very detailed oriented and a good teacher. How did you become such a good teacher and learn the subtleties of this art?
TC: This is very important and I'm glad you asked me about this. In my life, I've done a lot of things and I've always had world-class instructors, people who were the best in the world at what they did. I've studied music. I had a great football coach. I always thought that this would rub off. And I really want this in the interview, I never realized what a good coach was until I met Bruce Lee, not the Karate Bruce Lee, my Bruce Lee, the guy that was on my video series. I met him about three or four years ago, through the Internet, and even though he was not a submission guy, he didn't know submissions, he was a strict wrestler, this guy here is the best teacher that I have ever met in my life. When people tell me that I have been a good coach or whatever, I tell them that I'm nothing compared to Bruce. Bruce is outstanding and I learned so much from him, not just about pure wrestling, amateur style, but to coach people. My coach wasn't very fluent in English and he was very rough and rugged. He was a very tough guy. Bruce is the one who knows how to communicate. He's the one who taught me so much about how to talk to people. So, if anybody has any compliment to give me, you're not giving me the compliment, you're giving it to Bruce Lee. I owe a lot to this guy. You know, he helps me out at my gym and he does things for people in ways that I could never do. I want him to start getting a lot of credit because he deserves it.

FCF: In your tapes, you often mention what other grappling arts call certain positions and techniques, such as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu's use of the name the guard. Did you study any other grappling disciplines? And if so, who did you study under?
TC: Nobody that you would really know. Actually before I started doing Catch, there was a guy in Cleveland, named Ray Jablonski. He was a hand-to-hand combat instructor in World War II for the Marines and he taught me some rudimentary Judo stuff, basically throws, a couple chokes, and this and that. I thought that was really cool. Mainly it was Rodvaut who was my major coach, and of course you pick up things along the way. You never stop learning. But as far as studying a grappling style, the only one that I studied, in-depth, was Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling as far as grappling.

FCF: How did you learn the terms of other grappling arts. It's fairly common to learn about terms like the guard and mount, but you seem to be a little more educated than the average person.
TC: Well, my first exposure to BJJ was in UFC 1. I had never heard of the shit before. They had an advertisement on my cable thing and I watched it and I said this is pretty cool. What's this going to be about? When I saw it, I understood what it was all about. It didn't surprise me from a technical standpoint. As for the other arts, my grandparents raised me. My grandfather was a professional boxer and he was at the world-class level. He would have fought for a championship, if it wasn't for World War II. So, I always had a background in that, reality based things. I can remember old time pros that used to come over to the house to visit. Guys that fought Joe Louis, and Max Baer, and Sugar Ray Robinson, I remember talking to these guys. So from my very youngest recollection, it was boxing. I embarked on a competitive boxing career. And that was what I was interested in, of course, a little martial arts along the way, bando, and a couple of other things like that. But it wasn't until I learned this wrestling that I felt complete and well rounded. I am by no means, an expert on shit like Hapkido or whatever. But I watch the grappling stuff and I watch the UFC and basically it's all the same. It's not that hard to decipher what's going on.

FCF: You have mentioned of former students fighting, but do you have any current students who planning on competing in NHB?
TC: No, I have a guy, my top guy, whose name is Brian DeNeve. Brian is absolutely, just totally sensational. Mike Kwok knows him and speaks highly of him. I will say this point blank, I don't like the way NHB is going. Not so much the people involved, like the participants, my hat is off to those guys. I just think that there is a lack of organization. I think that you have to sacrifice a lot and the pay off is nil. Brian is more interested right now in doing the submission only tournaments or what is called Pancrase styled events. But as far as NHB right now, I don't have anybody in my little cluster that wants to do this. Like I said earlier, I've trained guys who have done this, but they are not part of my nucleus. I want to do this, I want to find a couple people who are interested in that because, I think, with my striking background, I think that they could be very strong contenders. So, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hope that somebody comes stumbling through my doors that want to do this. A lot of people talk the talk, people tell me that they want to do this and do that, but they don't want to get their butt on the mat. They don't want to get in the gym and do their conditioning exercises and they end up quitting.

FCF: Are you working on any other projects?
TC: I've done a lot of body guarding work in my life, a lot of security work, you could say. I have taught law enforcement agents. What we're trying to do now is to get back into that vane, teaching more realistic combat. What has happened in the last three or four years is people have come to me and I will show them shit and they would say "wow, that's great, but I can't use it in this tournament or that tournament, blah, blah, blah." So I conformed, I said okay, well we'll modify this. But I want to get out of doing that. I want to get down to how I used to be, down and dirty, anything goes. If I want to stick my finger in your eye, I'm going to do that. If I want to rip your nose off, stick my finger up your nostril, let's do it. I am getting back into that right now. What I'm going to work on next is the law enforcement thing or working with military organizations, which I've done in the past. Me and my management team is putting together a program to do that. That's probably the next thing you'll see from me.

FCF: It's kind of funny hearing you talk about sticking your finger in somebody's eye and then saying you want to teach law enforcement.
TC: Well you know, here in Chicago, this is stuff that's very important to know. For example, if you come to me and you want to learn how to fight for this grappling tournament, I don't have to teach you about thumbing or how to defend it because it's not going to happen. It's against the rules. A cop in Chicago, they very well may have someone try to stick a thumb in their eye. They may have a guy lay on the ground with them and while their trying to handcuff him, he might reach in his boot and pull out a knife and stick him in the kidneys. This is reality. I feel that the marital arts has gotten away from reality. This NHB stuff, everybody thinks this is the real deal. That's bullshit. It's a sport man. These people have to understand that. This is completely and totally just a sport. In real life, it's a whole different thing. And currently, I'm involved heavily with working on the street. One of the reason's why you had a problem getting a hold of me is because I am body guarding for two women that are being stalked. And they need me in the night, separately of course, and this is the real deal. When you are sitting there waiting for some guy to take a shot at you with a gun, it's a lot different when you are waiting for a guy to take a shot at your legs with a double leg. I want to get back and I need to get back to my roots, Chris. That's the bottom line.

FCF: That leads me to another question. Does Catch wrestling included self-defense techniques?
TC: Yes it does. And here's the thing, it doesn't include it by design. In the carnival circuit, much like some of those tough guy or whatever they call those events in Brazil, when you're wrestling in the carnival circuit, it's a street fight. You're going up against a guy who wants to tear your head off. He wants to win the money. He wants to show to his friends and family there, that he's a tough guy. You develop certain techniques. Let me dispel something here, these guys don't know a thousand submission holds. It's not about that. What it is, is learning maybe five, maybe ten, whatever, hooks that are going to work for you. And I'll tell you right now, in my opinion, and this is strictly my opinion, a front face lock choke, a double wrist lock, a top wrist lock, a toe hold, a heel hook, a hammerlock up the back, rear chokes, these are the things you really need to focus on, also a step over toe hold. You don't need to learn a lot of varieties. But me as a coach, I have to show all these different things because what may work for you, may not work for Michael Kwok. So it's my job to show you all those infinite possibilities. But in Catch wrestling, the guys who really did the hooks, they were the toughest guys on the face of the earth. It doesn't mean that they can't be beat. They can get knocked out, if they don't see the punch coming or if they get sloppy. But in my opinion, they were the toughest.

FCF: Is there anything else you would like to add?
TC: You know, I want to say something about you, and I mean this, we've been playing phone tag for a week and a half and I want to thank you for even wanting to interview me and shit. What you don't seem to realize is that people seem to look at me like I'm Catch wrestling. And I'm not. I'm a Catch wrestler, I am not Catch wrestling. There's been people out there that has come before me that are sensational. I can never be in their league, like the guys that I mentioned before, Billy Wicks, Dick Cardinal, and so on. But it's people like you that really give me hope that this is going to live on, at least from a historical standpoint. It's a shame because in Hawaii, [I live in Hawaii, for those of you that have not figured it out yet-C.O.] especially in the 50s, was a hot bed for professional style wrestling. There were hookers that went through Hawaii, through the carnival circuit. I'm just hoping that there's some organization, like Full Contact, whoever it may be, to allow this historical thing to go on. So, I'm going to tell you this from the bottom of my heart, thanks for the interview, thanks for being patient, and stuff. You're good people in my book.

FCF: Thanks and no problem. How do people get in touch with you?
TC: I've got a phone number and a web site. The web site is catchwrestle.com, not catchwrestling, but catchwrestle.com or you can call my management, Orella International, at (773) 625-1016 and ask for a guy by the name of Dave. He's a good guy and he's been helping me out a lot.

FCF: Thanks for taking the time.
TC: Thanks for the interview and keep in touch.